I hate Evangelists… of ALL kinds.
Seriously… Today while browsing my local paper online during a break, I accidentally clicked on Billy Graham’s column. And I do mean accidentally(they messed up the usual positioning and I wasn’t really paying attention), I know that there is nothing for me there, and so generally don’t read it. It’s part of my ongoing campaign to not have a stroke by the age of forty.
So there I am, expecting to see Carolyn Hax, and what I read is a letter from some woman who says that she has approached her co-workers about religion, and that they have politely informed her that they’re happy she has a belief, that they don’t share that belief and are perfectly content with that. She asks the Rev if it is possible to be happy without God, and how she should try to minister to these folks.
Instead of telling her to leave the nice people alone who do not wish to be pestered by a God-botherer, he proceeds to talk to her about slipping God into the conversation any way she can, and to realize that these poor fools need her ministering more than anyone.
There’s a reason Mr. Yuck is my icon of choice for the account.
HOWEVER, this does not excuse Atheists for similar bad behavior. Oh freaking no. Just like I don’t need someone nattering on and on about Jesus and his buddies, I do not need Atheists telling me I’m a delusional fool for having imaginary friends in the Universe. I do not need to be reasoned out of my Pagan beliefs, my belief in an afterlife, reincarnation, or the concept that the world was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don’t. I’m a militant agnostic, albeit with Pagan leanings: I don’t know, and you don’t either. This means you, Atheists.
Haranguing passers-by with the word that God loves them and they need to convert is just as offensive to me as it is to try to sit me down and “reason” me out of any spiritual beliefs I might have. It’s obnoxious. Both sides. Totally fucking obnoxious, and leave me out of it. And don’t even try to tell me that Atheists don’t do that, because I can point you to several folks, and books, that do that exact thing.
Look, as long as someone’s personal beliefs aren’t infringing on my right to believe or not, I don’t give a flying fuck if they worship a purple penguin in Halo3 body armor riding a hot pink dragon and buggering the great big Homo in the sky.
I. Don’t. Care.
And neither should you.
Seriously, Christians, I appreciate your concern, but fuck off. Atheists, I appreciate your concern, but fuck off. Same goes to Hare Krishnas and anyone else who thinks I need converting.
Feeling so desperately the need to convince other people of your rightness just smacks of a fundamental insecurity in your own beliefs (or lack thereof) to me. The harder you try to convince me you’re right, the more secure I am in the knowledge that you have doubt. An assload of doubt. A METRIC assload of doubt. And I don’t care what you’re trying to convince me of.
Yeah, I spend a fair amount of time questioning the existence of some form of primal creative force in the Universe, and whether or not it’s out to get me, has a sick sense of humor or just plain doesn’t give a shit. And if I want your input, I’ll ask you. But you don’t need to inform me or attempt to correct my misguided ways.
And no, this is neither the time nor the place to get into a slap fight over who started it.
Polimicks 
On top of everything else you just said: Advising people to talk religion at work is just bad advice and is likely to get the woman in trouble. I certainly would not tolerate it and would complain to HR about it…
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Damn, I love you.
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Major icon love…
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There’s a bunch of them over here. 🙂
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Thanks!
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just as offensive to me as it is to try to sit me down and “reason” me out of any spiritual beliefs I might have.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to try to each my kids tolerance and empathy, and that peoples’ faith is important to them and if they want to believe in Jesus and God and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, that’s their choice, when they have another parent doing that whole ‘reason’ thing?
I don’t care what they believe, as long as they have a glimmer of understanding that not everyone thinks like them, and that’s ok. The Evil Genius has never gotten in so much trouble as the day I caught her telling her LDS friend that God was imaginary and she was stupid for believing in him.
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Yeah… You can raise your kids Atheist if you want, Bart’s parents did, but you can do it with empathy and respect. I find this new strain of aggressively evangelical Atheism to be highly fucking irritating.
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WORD.
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PREACH IT!
oh, wait…
😉
seriously, though, i agree completely. i mean, i understand the excitement they have with (what they think is) a powerful rhetorical crew recently publishing on the subject (Dawkins, Hitchens, etc – the whole New Atheist crowd), but enthusiasm* doesn’t excuse rude behaviors.
*for maximum irony, consider the etymology of this word.
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Hee hee.
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Agreed. And this is as a former evangelical Christian.
I, at least, never jumped in someone’s face (metaphorically) and said “YOU’RE WRONG!”
I just invited them to church, no strings attached.
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Oh, shit. As another mom trying to raise tolerant children, you’ve got my sympathy.
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Granted, I totally understand where the reactionary attitudes of the combative Atheists come from. I lived in Idaho and Eastern Washington for fuck’s sake. But really…
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On the polyfamilies list, we call these people One-True-Wayists. It started out for those who think that their is ONE TWUE WAY to be poly, practice BDSM (Old Guard posts anyone?), or what have you. It got expanded to religion, parenting, etc.
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Nah. Sorry, if someone shows up at my door or confronts me about religion, ESPECIALLY if they’re trying to push theirs on me, they have become a source of entertainemnt and I get to fuck with them.
My repect for my father doubled they day he had a civil, extremely rational conversation with a Mormon who showed up at his door, and the man walked away crying. Never once did Dad mention his religion. let alone that he was a member of the clergy.
It is better to follow someone who’s seeking the truth than someone who thinks they have found it. -Terry Pratchett
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And yes, if someone gets pushy at you, I fully endorse mocking them unmercifully until they go away. I’ve made several folks go away in tears when they haven’t taken my “Thank you, no,” seriously.
I’m talking about people who feel the need to EVANGELIZE regardless of what they’re selling.
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Sorry, we’re tail-chasing.
That’s why I LIKE evangelists… its one of the only times I feel OK about totally messing with people. I occasionally even seek them out at large public gatherings, because you always find a few at places like the Fair, or Hempfest.
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Maybe I’ve just gotten all crotchety, but I really just want to be left alone for the most part.
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I happen to not have the God Moduletm as a pre-installed feature, but that doesn’t mean I think people who do are stupid or lesser.
I had to de-friend myself from for some of the reasons you mentioned.
It became just so … le tiring … the Atheists, especially the young, and the newly converted, and all their screaming at True-Believers, as if the screaming would help. And even the trying to “reason”. hm.
Well, I just stay out of it anymore, because I believe I know … and I know that I really don’t know. Despite my oh-so-perfect reasoning skills, I lack rhetorical tact 🙂 And really, other than trying to rule my body and my actions in the name of their G*d, monotheistic people aren’t really bothering me. So why scream? But the baby-Atheists, they just won’t listen to that.
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I am not a member of the Agnostic Jihad.
[disclaimer: Mortijinglists are non-exclusive. We have Buddhist, Atheist, Wiccan, and Jewish Mortijinglists. Convert today! Ask me how!]
In their defense, I think of it this way: if someone loved me, perhaps like a parent, and wanted to make sure I could do something for myself to avoid pain and suffering, I would expect them to make the effort. Whether it’s telling me to put down that piece of cake because it’s going to play havoc with my blood sugar, or telling me not to write the post I want to write because I will have half my family calling me in five minutes either crucifying or congratulating me… that’s what people who love each other do.
And if they think my being gay, or pagan, or a horror writer, or merely someone who cracks jokes about death is going to cause me to agonize for eternity, then yeah, I can see their trying their darnednest (ahem!) to keep me from that fate.
With that in mind, at what point can they let it go and have their loved one make their own mistakes? That’s a more interesting discussion. One who has no intention of converting may say, “Immediately. If I say, `No,’ they need to go.”
As a child, I did that to my parents a lot. “No, I won’t wash the dishes. No, you can’t make me go to bed. No, I will not log off and go outside and play.” They persisted, I learned a lesson.
This is a lesson regarding what they believe to be your eternal soul (or your mortal disillusionment.) They’re going to try harder.
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Re: I am not a member of the Agnostic Jihad.
Ok, here’s the difference, you’re not a child anymore. You are an adult with the right to believe as you see fit, as are they. Part of being an adult is recognizing that other people may hold different views and respecting that decision.
Repeatedly attempting to force something on another adult is not adult behavior. It is in the best case, rude and somewhat insulting, in worst case scenario, bullying and emotionally manipulative.
I will frequently give people a pass based on the fact that I’m sure they’re very excited about this truth that they have, but if I have to repeat my “No, Thank you” more than once, the gloves are off. They have just displayed a complete and utter disregard for my autonomy as a person and my right to believe as I believe, and parent or not, I will unload on them about what a load of bullshit that is.
Now, if someone says to me, “I’d like to talk to you about Christ,” and I say, “Thank you, no,” and they respect that. I’m totally ok with that.
And I feel the exact same way about evangelical atheists.
It is not ok to force your views on other people, be it the belief in God or the absence of a belief in God.
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Uncommon Courtesy
Oh, as a matter of rational individuals reacting to one another, I agree there’s rules, and social standards that limit our behaviour.
But to someone who believes you’re effectively driving off a cliff, they’re going to do what is in their power to get you to veer away.
Question: do you follow this to the next step that it’s not right for parents to choose religion for their children? After all, they’re forcing their views on the most malleable, unable-to-consent part of our population.
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Re: Uncommon Courtesy
You know, as a parent you have a certain amount of control over your child’s life. So long as the teaching of your beliefs does not cross the line into abuse (physical especially), you will, some may argue you have the responsibility to, teach your children your values. The thing is that you need to recognize that as they get closer to adulthood they may reject certain of your teaching. If at some point you feel the desire to use physical punishment to reinforce beliefs, say beating your son for being gay, then that crosses a line, even if you think you’re doing it to ultimately save their soul.
I have my own feelings about teaching children to hate, I do feel that falls under child abuse. Particularly teaching them to hate themselves.
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Look, as long as someone’s personal beliefs aren’t infringing on my right to believe or not, I don’t give a flying fuck if they worship a purple penguin in Halo3 body armor riding a hot pink dragon and buggering the great big Homo in the sky.
Agreed…
It’s a matter of common courtesy, which I realize doesn’t mean anything anymore. I don’t go around trying to convince people of my beliefs, and I don’t get why they feel they have a right to force theirs on me.
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Indeed. You and I are both of the school of “Don’t preach/Be an example.” It’s been THOSE people in my life who have made a difference in my spiritual practice.
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Meh, I try…and I’m glad. 🙂
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